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  1. #381
    Newbie Solidaire's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    It's the irredentism then. Ok, I will not go into questions as to which lands you consider yours, will not even get into the game of refuting this and that. I will only ask you a simple question: What do you hope to gain with all this? Do you even consider possible to get back the lands you believe are yours? If not, why go on futile campaigns that add nothing to being a good neighbour, as you said we should be? Is this your idea of being one?

  2. #382
    Sr. Member Zeus10's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solidaire View Post
    It's the irredentism then. Ok, I will not go into questions as to which lands you consider yours, will not even get into the game of refuting this and that. I will only ask you a simple question: What do you hope to gain with all this? Do you even consider possible to get back the lands you believe are yours? If not, why go on futile campaigns that add nothing to being a good neighbour, as you said we should be? Is this your idea of being one?
    You must have read between the lines to discover: I am an irredentist. Furthermore I consider your "discovery" to be completely irrelevant of what we are discussing here. I don’t think we can help much to solve the complex problems between the two countries; the resolution must come from political levels. Meanwhile you and your friends can help, by NOT claiming anything as Greek or Greek related.

  3. #383
    Progressing Member Aleeacerix the Gaul's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bares View Post
    This seems to be the real issue here, yes. Though TBH I stopped following after the usual "modern Greeks are not related to ancient Greeks"-nonsense started floating about. I dont understand why some people expect the rest of us to believe that the Greeks were all "hellenized Turks/hellenized Italians/hellenized Albanians/hellenized Martians" or whatever else fancies their particular conspiracy theory. Much the same with the whole claim that "everything you were taught in school is false" - yeah, because the Greek propaganda-machine is apparently so strong that it can permeate education in Sweden (or other Western countries), fabricate archaeological, historic and anthropological evidence and generally "hide the real truth that only a few conspiracy-theorists know"...
    These Albanian nationalist probably think that propaganda has permeated not just Western countries, but also Asian and South American countries as well. Look at the Japanese made video game Kid Icarus. How could such a culture from far away ever spread their 'propaganda' to Japan video game creators? Probably their excuse is they were inspired by "fake" Greek mythologies from Western historians.


    Originally Posted by Solidaire
    You may consider such threads as the garbage bins of the forum. They tend to collect all the nonsense that would else litter the whole site. Useful, but utterly undesirable to visit.

    I never could understood why are Greeks responsible for the woes of Albanians. What does it mean "because our ancestors were not the mighty Hellenes"? They were not the mighty Romans, or the mighty Franks, or the mighty Russians either, so what is it that drives you to target Greeks and Greek history specifically? Why this envy, this hatred, this need to defame and alter history to suit your own nationalist agenda? Because people tend to be envious of their neighbours infinitely more than distant people? Because you despise the fact that a large percentage of Albanians are making their living as economic immigrants in Greece doing menial jobs? Because you nurture Balkan ideas of a greater Albania which includes lands of other countries? All of them? What is it with all Albanian posters that I came across showing the same attitude and agenda?

    Instead of getting satisfaction from mangling history and adopting conspiracy theories that feed your hidden aspirations and wounded egos, face reality and try to actually change it for the better. If you like history as you claim, learn it from credible authors, not charlatans that spread their paranoia and agendas. And if you feel belittled and short, try to gain height, not to belittle and shorten those around you.

    These Albanian nationalist are just jealous of Greek history. They claim the most trivial facts about any Greek/Roman/Byzantine figures(oh Justinian and Constantine was born in Illyria, they are Illyrian) and claim as if their entire lifestyle is Illyrian(ignoring their Roman/Greek/Byzantine lifestyle) Anyone can make 'facts' up. These nationalistic posters arguments have the same logic as people who think that gravity doesn't exist and that there is no proof for its existence. Their belief is the same as the belief of crazy people who think that the fact that gravity doesn't exist is true and anymore who spews pro-gravity fact is an gravity propaganda activist. That how I see it everytime I see posts from Albanian nationalists.


    It's the irredentism then. Ok, I will not go into questions as to which lands you consider yours, will not even get into the game of refuting this and that. I will only ask you a simple question: What do you hope to gain with all this? Do you even consider possible to get back the lands you believe are yours? If not, why go on futile campaigns that add nothing to being a good neighbour, as you said we should be? Is this your idea of being one?
    They'll gain a compensation to make up for their country's slow economical growth and high unemployment rate. LastKnight is basically Garibaldi. He has made a big change to his syntax this time, but not his content. Whenever some one says something like Albanian insurgent groups made war crimes, that the economy is bad in Albania/Kosovo, that police in several countries arrested several Albanian mafia members for some drug or human organ trafficking charges,or that lots of young people are leaving Kosovo because of the bad economy, Garibaldi will always say that these real events are lies and propaganda. Every country and nation has people/events like these, but Garibaldi does not like it when his country is associated with these events. He thinks that Albania is a holy clean nation. He can not bare to face the truth since that he knows that his nation isn't one of the greatest in the world, so he steals other nations histories and cover up bad events/people about his country to compensate for his nation's rank compared to other countries in the world. That way he lives happily that his nation is the über nation and that all countries are evil sinners while his country is the holy paragon of light. His mentality can be applied to any fringe groups(nationalist, creationist, racist, sexist). Basically all of them are pathological liars and radicals.

    Irredentism movements and conquests come and go. Greece and Bulgaria had theirs during WW1 which did not turn out great and ended up defeated. Croatia had one during WW2, did not turn out great and ended up defeated. Serbia had one during the Yugoslavic war which they lost. All these nations gave up their irredentism movement because they tried and failed. The only nations in the Balkans who still have irredentism movements are Fyrom, Albania and Kosovo since they haven't attempted or failed any irredentist agendas. If they suddenly attack their neighbors because of irredentist agendas and fail, then they'll stop being irredentists, otherwise they'll desire for more land and power. If Albania, Macedonia or Kosovo starts a war because of irredentism, then the world should consider to stop their actions. Else they'll continue to have this mentality for 100 's of years.

  4. #384
    Sr. Member Zeus10's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    You are basically wrong on almost everything you say or you think, presuming everything you write is genuine. The good hearted Albanians, want to look at Greece, as their good neighbour which helped them in a difficult time, and they want to be always grateful to the Greek people for their help, although they very often experienced severe exploitation and abuse. The wise and educated Albanians are grateful too, but they can distinguish the racist behaviour among the Greeks against Albanians, which culminates with Greek politics. There is another range of Albanians, whose approach toward Greeks is irrational and manifest ignorance, but this approach doesn’t come from the best of us.
    And no, we are not jealous about Greece and Greek people. There is nothing in Greece to be jealous for, especially these very moments. Greece is in decline, and the presumed great history is not helping to stop this decline. The Greeks have used more than once the credits of their famous past, to argue they don’t deserve this decadence, but in modern reality, it seems this is not a valid currency, to be exchanged for a better life and good reputation at the same time. Sometime the Greeks, find consolation for their misery to the fact that their neighbour countries like Albania, do not offer something better. On an intellectual level when criticism comes from these countries toward the Greek ‘stronghold’ which is the past history, the Greek reaction is not a simple intellectual refutation, but a political humiliative campaign that involves everything about these countries. In the case of Albanians, the reaction toward them is very poisonous, you called this thread: ‘the forum garbage’, just because we put across some good historical points which you don’t like. Then you called me an irredentist, and I am surprised, because I strongly believe that Albania does not possess and most likely will not possess the necessary political, military, human and technical means to exercise any kind of irredentism.

    Now, we all know that everyone is free to express an opinion or to aspire for an idea that he might like. Albanians believe that old history doesn’t have only one actor, and this actor is NOT the so called Ancient Hellenes, whose descendants are the Modern Greeks. The tendency of the Greeks to occupy the whole scene of the old history, excluding everyone else, supporting this with flawed theories, is the reason why this and many similar threads are created by us, and our active participation in the forums doesn’t involve irredentism or a hidden agenda. Yes, Albania is not the greatest country to live, but that doesn’t mean for us, we will find comfort by humiliating our neighbors although it’s still fresh in our national memory, that was exactly these neighbours who significantly contributed in the recent past, to put Albania in this misery which they ridicule now. Greeks might be happy, or who knows might be sad, they don’t take the gold medal, for atrocity against Albanians. This medal goes to ignorant Serbian rulers and PEOPLE, because they demonstrated themselves to be Albanians’ certified butchers, and becoming enemy to Albanians just to fulfill the interest of their masters : The Russians , who desire a dominion in the Balkans.

    For what regards to us, our position toward Greek history will be neutral for as long as you follow a fair standard toward Albanian history. This standard on the disputed historical matters includes the use of the sentence/s:

    There is a theory claiming ___________________ as Greek

    And should be followed by the sentence:

    But there is another reliable theory that _________________________ was Albanian

    When we talk about Epirus, you should write:

    For as long as we heard about the name Albania, Epirus seems to be synonymous to it. There are indications that prior the KNOWN times, Epirus has been inhabited by people related to the so called Ancient Hellenes. We don’t know what the word 'Ancient Hellenes' represent though, an ethnic nation, a religious nation or just a religious elite ruling over different ‘ethnos’-es, and for this reason we can not connect them to the Modern Greeks. All we know, that we love the idea, the Greeks today, speak a language, which was formerly the national language of the Ancient Hellenes, but we have zero evidences to prove this, especially for the fact that we don’t know the very meaning of the Ancient Hellenes.
    This would be the right approach to the history and mazy ethnic judgments toward it.

  5. #385
    Progressing Member Epintius's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Nice to see you write some positive things about modern Greeks, myself could see spacially among the younger generation in Greece who was grow up with the children of Albanians and other immigrants friendly or neutral feelings mostly and the hard working attitude of many Albanian families is also respected from Greeks, about the negative things from both sides notice when the boarers open was going into Greece many prisoners straight from the opened communist prisons from Hodja, that was in a foreign to immigrants society like Grece was in the early 90s not the best picture about Albanians. Before nobody cared about Albania , the boarders was closed we knew just about that Greeks existed still in N. Epirus and that our grandfathers was fighting the fascists in the 2. WW. Back to the contact after the boarders opened, mistakes was done from both sides, myself agree that the newcomers should had a better receiving also from the authorities cause even most was illegal Samaras had decided to open the boarders so the greek authorities had played with double standarts for years. But if myself is not wrong many Albanians could buy houses in Greece and Albania and also recognised after years of difficulties with official status from the state and get also greek IDs, correct me where myself is false.

    About the ancient Hellenes they described themselfes clearly as a nation and they describe also very detailed how this nation cames out, if you like it or not Epirotes and Macedonians , the ancient ones are not related with Illyrians or Albanians through the sources, the selfidentification or the foreign identification from others nor archeologically.

    About Epirus in meddieval times through your propaganda files you will never find out that in the Despotat of Epirus wasnt any signifficant presence until the 14th century AD, when the Albanians go southwards with the Serbs after a civil war in the Despotat and establish themselfes in many places as warlords. The Greek elemetn doesnt distinct from there and from nowhere.

    Since the fall of Constantinople existed people in the southern Balkans and Anatolia wo selfidentify themselfes also as Hellenes and Grekoi besides the ethnonym Romey. This people feel connected with ancient Greeks through the anceint hellenic writings that they had touch with also through their education and identification, talking about their real ancestors they mostly see them on the ancient Hellenes. Also through the places they inhabit and some thousand years before was also inhabited from ancient Hellenes.

    Back to Epirus now:

    I had a question: Kastrioti your national hero writes often King of Albanians and Epirotes, why he does this? Sure some Albanians have also Epirotan ancestry from albanised Epirotes and living in Epirus they also selfidentify with Epirotes with the time but if you like it or not the Albanians gone to the lands of old Epirus from mostly the 14th century and later. When through the Ottoman rule with the mass islamisations the one or the other and also the Ottoman autorities describe this places as albanian lands it means nothing. This places were until deep inside the meddieval time mostly on greek hands , with the only exeption the slavic invasion were also Albania was lost from the empire to the Slavs. Even under that circumstances th ancient named survived until the 12th century and even later, like Chaonia where the name of the region remained the same also centuries after the slavic invasions.


    And myself we go now into a meddieval source which is the so called Kouvaras from the city of Ioannina which had written inside the history of the city of Ioannina (which was founded from Iustinian by taking settlers from an Epirotan city in the near of Nicopolis) and remained with a greek majority population until through the whole Ottoman times until it united with Greece. This Kouvaras was burned in some way in the Ottoman times where it was into a monastery if myself is not wrong. Here some things that survived:


    Islamization and de-Hellenization of Epirus during the Turkish occupation
    A historical resource for the continent was a collection of manuscripts known as "Kouvaras." It included the time from the 3rd to the 19th century. It belonged to Filanthropinon Monastery on the islet of Ioannina where was destroyed in the burning of Ioannina in 1820, the school where Kaplani guarded. Fortunately many parts of the manuscripts were saved copies called "small Kouvaras" which serves as a reference in the article.

    In "Little Kouvaras" refers to this: In the first era of the Ottoman timariouchoi were Christians. They were required by order of the Sultan to participate in campaigns after being gathered in Ioannina.
    "When royal order came to prepare for war, Alimpeis Ioannina warned surrounding provinces, ie. Delvino, Gjirokastra, Paramythia, Konitsa etc and gathered the Order of timarioton in Ioannina and from there they going all with Christian Flags St. George and reach Mount Pindos to Metsovo collect the Christian flags and opened the Turkish ".

    Saint George was particularly dear to Greek warriors, as depicted ancient nobleman horseman and the liberator of prisoners. But it was dear to the Turks. The Skendermpeis, Fort Kroias where he had pitched his camp, he built the church of St. George which survives until today. Not always relied on the Holy battles against the Sultan they always came out victorious.
    Besides Turkish and other peoples of the Middle East particularly respect the St. Georgios which consider procedural "Ted" (saint), not the riders call this "chintir-eles" (saint - a saint). On April 23 many Muslim families make sweets that the handing and exchanging greetings and offer oil in churches for the vigil candle. In Epirus and elsewhere on April 23 the Turks came in the countryside together with Christians for fun.

    Christians sipahi has retained sole privilege and own lands (so called spailiki) until 1635. Then, in the time of Sultan Murad, had to change their faith and become Turks. There were even fanatical Turks ploundering and doing campaigns against Christians. The reason for this change allegedly was:

    In a campaign against the Sultan of Persia (1620-1650) forced at the command of Sinan Pasha to participate sipahi Christians from areas of Epirus at around 12000-15000. In war initially were defeating the Persians. In a crucial battle where the Turkish army threatened with disaster, the standard-bearer of Christians sipahi had the inspiration to lower the Turkish flag and hoist the flag of St. Georgios, which was the emblem of the Byzantine army after the 12th-13th century. In view of the Saint, the sipahi Christians not only dispersed as did the rest of the Turkish army counterattacked but encouraged the Persian army and the diverted flight.

    Later, returning to their camp, by mistake or cause of enthusiasiasm gathered Christian flags but were presented with the christian flags infront of the tent of the Vizier. The vizier welcomed them and their reward, but after the war narrated the incident to the Sultan. The Turkish officers and the commander in chief (seraskeris) considered dangerous and contrary to the Koran that in the army were serving so many thousands of Christians. After that the Sultan gave orders not to serve anymore in the Turkish army sipahi Christians. At the same time he gave the right to collect taxes only to Muslims sipahi. So those who wanted to continue to enjoy the privileges of "spachiliki" changed religion, otherwise periepeftan the rank of serf. Others preferred to engage in trade without changing faith. So the ownership of land in Epirus came under the Turks. For the statute of eviction of Christians sipahi mentioned a brother of Pope Nicholas Glyky, who died in Venice in 1790 at the age of 114 years.

    This Islamization spread to other classes of Christians who did not want to lose their land and other privileges they had. The phenomenon was particularly intense in Northern Epirus and regions of Avlona, Beration and part of Heimarra. The Christian past remained as a myth or memory so often one hears as a folk tale that all Toscs were Christians before 2-3 centuries.

    Some embraced Islam the only external and name. Others agreed with their families as a part of the family to become Muslims and they financially help the family. Usually the man became Muslim and the woman remained Christian.

    The French baron Toto, envoy of the French government to organize the Turkish artillery, says it once and was located in a Turkish camp in a war against Russia in 1769, heard two sipahi to converse in Greek. When he asked them they said they was from Epirus and in fact Christians but depicted the Turks to maintain their spachilikia.

    The misrule and corruption of the state apparatus allow Muslims or crypto sipahi to mistreat the Christian population to levied taxes, which they could not do against the Muslim population exempting taxes. Sipahi reportedly roamed the villages of Epirus with their horses loaded chains. Those Christians were not to pay their toll brought chained in private prisons maintained.

    It seems that this terrorism has brought upheaval to the population and so in 1691 for the great Vizier Hussein Kiouproulou (former Christian himself) issued the first "Nizami-Tzedid 'ie the new system with milder provisions for rayahs. The situation ameliorated in 1774 with the signing of the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca between Turkey and Russia, according to which Russia had the right to intervene in favor of the Christians. Then the Christians had some freedom with which they could deal with trade and shipping so they developed during the following centuries.

    Already, however, the Islamization had decimated the population with Greek population was once superior Turks and Albanians at a ratio of 10 to 1. The Eton believes that Greek was 4/5 of the population, and the Pouqueville and Leak it was the 9 / 10. At last percentage corresponds Aravantinos and based on information taken from Kouvaras. He says that even the Turks of Epirus called "romiogyrismata" (it means something like turned Romioi, turned to Islam, became Turks.)

    In the 19th century several crypto Crypto restored to their original faith. In the province of swords between Elbasan, Berat, Mokra Gora and residents who were renowned for their prowess remained crypto Christians and the nights with many precautions had done Christian ceremonies in underground crypts and day circulated as Muslims. This remained until 1904 when Russia took to protect them so publicly confessed their Christianity without any reaction from the Turkish government.

    In Argyrokastron, Christians and Muslims once had a common place of prayer, the Monastery of St. Nicholas, Muslim women when they passed in front of the church made the sign of the cross. The Pouqueville, who was consul of France in Ioannina, states that in the whole Epirus he only met one real Turk and four women.

    In the village Doudaki in Avlona were done marriages between Christians and Muslims. Also in Kourvelesi of Himara have marriages between Turkish Albanians Liapis and Christians (the term tourkalvanos means the muslim Albanian back on those times, but also the term Alvanos or Arvanitis was used to describe muslim Albanians) . Leak says that from such marriages the boys reared as Muslims and the girls as Christian. In Liopesi of Heimarra half of the families were Christian and half Muslim, they celebrate together in festivals and weddings.

    The principal historians of Epirus, foreign consuls in Ioannina long as Eton (1780-1798), Pouqueville (1806-1819) and Leak (1805-1822) agree that the Muslim and Turk-Albanians of Epirus was initially Greeks who turn to Islam .
    Islamization concerned also Catholic Christians of the region and in the reports of ambassadors and Catholic missionaries and travelers like Chevalier, Montealvano, Pokkop and Lamotre.

    Lull in persecution of Christians was the time of Ali Pasha who to solidify its territory showed religious tolerance. This allowed the palace are Christians to their religious duties. Himself choiced to be a Bektashi, ie. A libertine sect who believed in reincarnation. According to Leake Ali Pasha allow his wife Vassiliki ( a greek woman from a village of the Ioannina region) to keep Royal Chapel and to a Christian Albanian harem maintain chapel inside the gallery.

    The article mentions a number of personalities who had Christian origin. The information is derived basically from a list renegade Albanians and Greeks excelled in the Ottoman state. This list wrote the German turkology historian Hamer and reproduces Aravantinos. Hamer even says that the most successful sultans were those who were Christian ministers. Of the 40 large viziers who took this post after the fall of Constantinople / the city, only 12 were of Turkish origin.


    Liazos Pasha

    Former Christian from the village Pliasa of Himara, was commander of Avlon in 1518. To bring order to the province's he recognized the Ottoman sovereignty and gave enough privileges to the residents endorsed the then Sultan Selim I and Suleiman renewed. Then the 33 villages of Himara constituted autonomous "Confederacy of Keravneion"(meanes since the ancient times with the same name called Kerauneia mountains of the region).

    Mahmud Pasha Michaloglou

    According to Chalkokondyli he was a Serb from a Greek father who was a member of the Filanthropinos family. Paparigopoulos writes that he was a philanthropist and friend of letters and sciences, he founded many churches, schools, hospitals etc.

    Avedin Pasha Dinos

    Turkish Foreign Minister and General. Governor of the Prefecture of Adana and the Aegean islands. He came from Paramythia (in Epirus). He wrote poems in Greek, some even in Homeric verses.

    Aslan Pasha

    Chief of the glorious Ottoman family of Ioannina and Argyrokastron. He was from Monodendri of Zagori (Epirus). According to Aravantinos ravished during the mass kidnapping of children (mazgidi) of 1550 and reached the rank of Commander. Pasha of Ioannina in the years 1600-1612. His family ruled Ioannina for two centuries (16th to 18th) until the time of Ali Pasha who abolished.
    About the kidapping of Aslan Aslan, survives until now in Epirus this folk song.

    Damn King and three Damn,
    With the evil you had done and the evil you do
    You send tied up the gerontes (them who took on the communities the decision), the first and the clerics
    To do the children kidnapping, collecting and done them Janissaries
    The parents cry their children , and the sisters their brothers
    I cri< also and burn and as far I live myself will crie
    Last year they took my lovely son, this year my brother

    here on greek:

    Ανάθεμά σε βασιλιά και τρις ανάθεμά σε,
    Με το κακόν οπ' έκαμες και το κακόν που κάμεις
    Στέλνεις δένεις τους γέροντες, τους πρώτους, τους παπάδες
    Να μάσεις παιδομάζωμα και κάμης γενιτσάρους
    Κλαίν οι γονέοι τα παιδιά και οι αδελφαίς τ' αδέλφια
    Κλαίγω κι εγώ και καίγομαι και όσο ζω θα κλαίγω
    Πέρσι πήραν το γιώκα μου, φέτο τον αδερφό μου





    Esat Pasha

    During oral announcement Vechit Pasha, brother of Esat Pasha, defender of Ioannina during the Balkan War of 1912 to the mayor of Ioannina B. Pyrsinelas, according to tradition maintained their families descended from Christian ancestors and even from women who were kidnapped from The Fortress. In particular they had ancestry from a women called Vassiliki, woman from the family of Glykydon , renowned printers of Venice.
    When Kemal forced the Turks to take a family surname, the Esat Pasha, wanting anyone to commemorate the birthplace of his ancestors was named "Boulziat Giangiali".

    Zeinel Gkiolekas

    From Christians who turn to Islam came also the leader of the revolution of 1847 to liberation from the Turkish yoke Greeks and Albanians, Zeinel Gkiolekas or Gionis Leka, from Kuci of Himara. He was the son of Mouslim Gkioleka who was killed in 1803 during the attack on Ali Souli, from Tusa (Thanassis Botsari), and grandson of the Christian Longinus Alexiou (some of this parts are very interesting cause they show that among the muslims of Epirus existed an intermarriage between Greeks and Albanians like this and othr examples, a process that starts very possibly before the time of the Ottomans when the first Albanians started to go southwards from the territories of ancient Illyria, thats also why they would hold also to their Epirotan ancestry, like also the christian Arvanites in southern Greece had done, despite that a part of them still until our days just say that they move southwards from the territories of ancient Illyria, them possibly belonged to populations who existed on the byzantine descriptions called Illyrioi skinite, with the tents finding homes in the Despotat of Morea despite that many of the aristocrats didnt agree with Paleologos, he allows a part of the ten thousand of this Illyrioi with the tents to inhabit some parts of Peloponnes, others find lands to inhabit become the allowance from the Catalans in the depopulated regions of Attika and Biotia, this was mostly the famous depopulated lands back on those times where also in parts of them and inside many cities the native greek speaking element remains a majority. Epirus or the Peloponnes or other greek lands wasnt depopulated back on the first albanian migrations ). On the constitution of these names, according Aravantinos, came the name "Gionis Leka" which has retained after the Islamization of.
    He was killed in 1852 in a battle against the Montenegrins.

    Ibrahim Pasha

    He was Grand Vizier and Beiler-bey (General Head). He came from Parga, son Christian fisherman named Jannis Mikegkas. Mikegkas, as long as his son was Pasha prosigorefteto "exochotatos Giannous Aga" and had fief in Parga where he collects yearly 2,000 ducats. Ibrahim was kidnapped by Algerian pirates and was sold as a slave to a widow in Magnesia of Asia Minor.. There seems received some education that later, when enlisted in the Janissaries Battalion, was top post of the state. At Sultan Suleiman doing (legislators) became the office of Grand Vizier in 1534 with the title of "kapoudan Pasha" (Admiral). According to Delvinakioti Christos Dallas, Ibrahim advised the Sultan to promote as Kapoudan Pasha Barbarossa, who took the title of "Hakata-ul-Bahr" (ruler of the sea). Ibrahim was internationally famous and the emperor Ferdinand of Austria (1500-1564) calls him "brother" the emperor of Germany Charles V (1500-1588) "cousin." The sultan himself, whose Ibrahim was groom on his sister, the time of adoption gaves him the title of "Sultan Santrazem" (Prime-Sultan). Ibrahim secretly did everything he could for Christians. He was killed by conspirators and was asleep in 1536. In Meletios Ibrahim was called "Amvrakiotis" because he was from Ambrakia.

    Karamouratatoi

    Christian from Leskovik was Isaim or Issam Sam or glazing ancestor faction of Karamourataton. From this name invited Isamides or Cham descendants and his name became synonymous with Chams and them who changed religions. Since then, Christians were called "infidel" (unbelievers), and the Islamised called "Chams" (thats the history behind the name Tsamouria for the region of Thesprotia and not the ancient name of the river Thymais like was believed from many, also from me).
    The Isaim had two sons, Jakup and Sinan. Descendant of Sinan settled in Berat, acquired ten sons of which the most worse in form and soul was Murat, called therefore Kara-Mourat (Black Murad) where he inhabit beyond Aoos river between the regions Perati - Glina and Leskoviki area.

    The villages of Karamouratadon, 36 in number, in the valley of Aoos to Premeti, was Christian was covered in the diocese Pogoniani. Although their residents of suffered badly from Mohammedanized, they hold until 1760. Early that year they took the decision they took the decision to calm of God with fasting and testing body. They decided that if God does not help they would convert to Islam. In vain their high priest explained that this is disrespectful. The Karamouratades fasted strictly during Lent and Easter when they came and did not see any improvement in their problems they collectively changed their faith.


    here the link on greek:

    ?? ?????: ???????????? ??? ???????????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????????????



    There exist also many other sources like byzantine chronicles and the chronicle of the city of Ioannina where as example it is easy to recognise that the inhabitants of Ioannina when the first Albanians moved to the city of Ioannina (after the 14th century AD where the Despotat of Epirus also lost a big part of its greek byzantine elite and military through a civil war and the later attacking Serbs with Albanians) they lynched them, cause of that they was going to the newcoming albanian warlords in the rural regions to solve the problems for them. Or that the residents of the Despotat of Epirus selfidentify fully with what was greek byzantine and distinct themselfes from all that newcomers. It could be possible that they done it so open cause many families was from Constntinople but also the inhabitants of the castle of Ioannina who was natives in the area had the same feelings.
    No doubt the Albanian presence became strong specially with the mass islamisations and albanisations through the first process specially during the Ottoman times also in the territories of old Epirus. As it cames out from Kouvaras a big part of them belonged to islamised greek or had a background of Greek-Albanian intermarriages and was also billinguals. Another part of the muslims was exclusive greek speakers with greek ancestry and memory of the greek past. They all was changed as Turks when the greek armee free the territories from the Turks. It was nothing something personally against the Albanians like your propaganda machine presents, it was something against the Ottomans, they all was Ottoman supporters independent of their origins.
    Also in Crete, Peloponnes and Macedon was such populations of exclusive native greek speaking muslims in language and roots exchanged or killed just cause they was Ottomans in the eyes of the Greeks of that time.

    Tow other points and myself has covered some of the missintepretations that I have read supported is that Greeks in Epirus arent highlanders. Sorry but Epirus is mostly highland and 92% of the population belongs to them who are natives on the land (with just 8% being with roots of the Greek refugees who exchanged) and also myself from my fathers side have roots from Epirus and guess what, from the highlands on northern Pindus in a village where was crossed in the past from Aoos river and my ancestors the people was traditionally stone builders, made out of stone bridges, houses, churches,s chools and tunnels, not only inside Greece, they get famous also outside of it. Yes of course also vlach speaking population exist but they not outnumbering the native greek speakers like you want to present, and Epirus is mostly mountainous and a big part of the villages and towns are builded into hills and rocky mountains and when they have some lcuk it exist also a small or sometimes also bigger plane between the mountains. Another job they done was lumberjack, but this was just incidentally. Agriculture was very limited with fields and land being available sometimes two to three hours behind the mountains in all directions and some very small garden like fields inside the village, also cattle bredding with most families have just a couple of sheeps just for milk and meet for celebrations and only few families have bid heards of animals. Myself speaking here specially for our places but in the greek part of Epirus is this phenomen not strange, with exeptions the big plane of Ioannina, some other towns, the southern parts and the coastal regions where there exist also massiv and big mountains but the landscape changes a little bit in compare to the more innlands.

    At least you possibly have read about Khristoforidhi a person who was from the first who took part on the albanian enlightment feeling himself Albanian. He had also greek roots with a fully greek name. Maybe you should start exploring more deep about the meddieval history of Epirus also beside the explanation the ancient Pelasgians - Illyrians- Epirotes- Macedon - Albanians was just autochthon and ever on that lands outside of some less historical meddieval sources and just present the Greeks as historical monsters who steel the history of yours , cause Greeks never claiming Phrygians or Agrianes and Illyrians and what else you have write being Greeks, despite this folks had a connection with each other. Also we never learned on Greek school something about Pelasgians, but simply Decalion, Pthia and all them who survived the flood was Pelasgians, and from the children of Deucalion and Pthia (Pelasgian people) came the hellenic race and they cut of from the PElasgians to absorbate them when they become stronger. Its not what modern Greeks or modern Greek state or any public teaching tells us, myself get it from the original sources simple as that, when you learn that the Pelasgians was ancient Albanians starting from the school without real evidence. Thats the differenc on how we learn history and how it effects us in the later years.

    Thanks again and sorry for the long post, it was nessecary cause a lot of claimings about this and that through many periods of history.

  6. #386
    Sr. Member Zeus10's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    e madhe=e mathe---> great
    e madhja=e mathia---> the great one

    The only thing neccessary for the triumph of evil is for good man doing nothing.

  7. #387
    Progressing Member Epintius's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Despite myself find it ugly to continue all this discussions you bring in when you feel that you re lost of arguments myself cant let this like that. Its historically false and very controverse to the truth saying the Greeks have to be thankful to Albanians for the freedom.

    1. The organisation and the revolution starts in places that was exclusively Greek, see filiki etairia, Mani etc.

    2. They had to fight in most when not in all battles the Albanian allies of the Ottomans who in compare to the Arvanites were not for centuries inhabit that places being not even close to the native Greeks like a big part of the Arvanites who settled in pre Ottoman era parts of Attica, south Euboia, parts of Biotia mostly but also sporadicly in some places in the Peloponnes building albanophone isles who transform with the time to billingual being it already for centuries in the time of 1821. Look to every battle you want you will find Greeks fought Albanians , Ottomans and Albanians much more in analogy than the Greek Arvanites on greek side where also many of them died from Albanian sword and weapon. Dont denie that on Ottoman side was also muslim Greeks but they was for the native Greeks just Turks and Ottomans for them wasnt even some description like Turkogreeks used, simply Turks and Ottomans when for the muslim Albanians was also the term Albanos, Arvanitis or Turkalbanos in use.

    3. In Greece was a scandal with money transfers and corruption from this patriotic historians you write about and a TV channel who present some similar stuff like the albanian propaganda was also involved. Maria Efthimiou is known from me from this phorum and nowhere else, she described many things one sided despite nobody denies in Greece the blood that the Arvanites gave for the freedom of Greece, nor the areas that was inhabit in southern Greece by Arvanites and their patriotical feelings, the Albanians out from Albania or them who settled from the Ottomans in Greece as their puppets was the biggest supporters of Ottomans in the area to the bones. At least the heroes and the involvement of simply native Greeks who had not roots from Arvanites was so big and influence so much the direction the revolution taked and the freedom of Greece that it makes this revolution Greek, so much that makes also the Arvanites Greeks cause they felt like that back on those times and they feel it until our days, doesnt matter if they spoke an meddieval albanian tongue with many greek loanwords or when the core of their ancestors came from the principality of Arvanon to Greece arround 400 years before 1821 in just before the Ottomans took controll over a big part of greek lands. Myself know very sure that the Arvanites of Greece would be hurted if somebody puts them out from the greek body so why you push us doing that when they are a very active part of the greek nation since centuries despite that you possibly had common roots and a common tongue back in the 13th and 14th century? OF course the other Greeks honour the Arvanites like they honour the Maniots, the other Moraites, like they honour the Cretans , like they honour the Rumeliots and part of the islanders for starting the revolution and continuing the freedom of Greece from the Ottomans where also every area gaves their own heroes from MAcedon and Chalkidike to Epirus and Thessaly under to Crete starting from pre Ottoman times , during the Ottoman era until 1821. In Greece took part arround 500 smaller and bigger revolts and revolutions during the Ottoman joch, the Orlov revolution or the revolts of Dionysios Skylosophos in Epirus just to mention a few.


    Where you are right is that indeed partly the Albanians help the revolution when they go to Peloponnes one generation before 1821 sendied there from the Ottomans to take controll over the lands after they sepperate themselfes from ottoman authorities and started plundering all over the land, what follows was a massive migration from the native Greeks to the mountains and a movement of outlaws (so called klephts) where after produces some of the greatest commanders and warriors among the local Greeks, them who win after in many battles against the Ottomans and their Albanian allies and who start the war of independence.


    just some links about 1821 who are also related to Albanians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrios_Makris

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavromichalis_family

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlov_Revolt

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_the_Philosopher

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Vrioni

    above it is about a revolt in Epirus when you ask me in the past about what was doing Greeks there

    here is also a folk song from Dropoli in Epirus (today part of Albania) about what they had suffer from the Turks and Albanians

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deropolitissa


    Much of this you can find also in Britannica that you prefer cause time reasons myself just linked wikipedia . Also the details of the many clasehs and battles who took place during the greek revolution show clearly how much the Albanians support the Ottomans of course being a part of their society .

    Myself also dont doubt the heroic resistance of the Albanians with Kastrioti against the Ottomans but after the mass islamisations the Albanians became the most important allies of the Ottomans into the area. So its completely wrong writing to us you have to be thankful to the Albanians cause even the Arvanites was back than for centuries even before the Ottomans arrived part of the greek body and lands and even today they are part of the greek nation and not the albanian nation.

    Never doubt that the Arvanites participate heroic and patriotically into the greek revolution no need to remind me nobody about our heroes from wherever they where of Greece independently if they had native greek roots or belonged to later arriving populations with greek or non greek ancestry, language etc. etc.

  8. #388
    Progressing Member Epintius's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Following you can find the lyrics of that song, where these "Greeks" seems to consider Albania being their country, long before Greek state creation.

    Greek

    σύ (ντ)α πας στην εκκλησιά,
    με λαμπάδες με κεριά,
    και με μοσκοθυμιατά,
    για προσκύνα για τ’ εμάς,
    τι μας πλάκωσε η Τουρκιά,
    κι όλη η Αρβανιτιά,
    και μας σέρνουν στα Τζαμιά,
    και μας σφάζουν σαν τ’ αρνιά,
    σαν τ’ αρνιά την Πασχαλιά.
    σαν κατσίκια τ’ Αγιωργιού
    English

    ...and go to the church
    with lamps and candles
    and with sweet-smelling incense
    pray for us too
    because Turkey has seized us,
    so as all of Arvanitia (Albania),
    to take us to the mosques,
    and slaughter us like lambs,
    like goats in Saint George’s day
    like lambs in Easter

    so their country was seized by the Ottomans, and they were calling it ARVANITIA, in other words Albania.


    Haha unbelievable what they are able to do and so funny how he desperate try to explain like the last and only post I check out from I suggest a lot of added answers who present us the "universal truth".

    Here:

    He explains that with their country was called Arvanitia when in the folk song the meaning is about the pressure form islamisations from the Tourkia (Turks) and Arvanitia (Albanians). The name of this lands was Epirus , Arvanitia was even from the Arvanites in Greece called ancient illyrian lands where was located the principality of Arvanon, north of the Despotat of Epirus the last name of this lands before Albanians move southwards and before the Ottoman occupation.

    Myself really dont know if I should check out what else interesting informations are on that site so to take the opportunity learn this hidden historical knowledge which had survivied among the PElasgians of Albania...

  9. #389
    Progressing Member Epintius's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Following you can find the lyrics of that song, where these "Greeks" seems to consider Albania being their country, long before Greek state creation.

    Greek

    σύ (ντ)α πας στην εκκλησιά,
    με λαμπάδες με κεριά,
    και με μοσκοθυμιατά,
    για προσκύνα για τ’ εμάς,
    τι μας πλάκωσε η Τουρκιά,
    κι όλη η Αρβανιτιά,
    και μας σέρνουν στα Τζαμιά,
    και μας σφάζουν σαν τ’ αρνιά,
    σαν τ’ αρνιά την Πασχαλιά.
    σαν κατσίκια τ’ Αγιωργιού
    English

    ...and go to the church
    with lamps and candles
    and with sweet-smelling incense
    pray for us too
    because Turkey has seized us,
    so as all of Arvanitia (Albania),
    to take us to the mosques,
    and slaughter us like lambs,
    like goats in Saint George’s day
    like lambs in Easter

    so their country was seized by the Ottomans, and they were calling it ARVANITIA, in other words Albania.


    Haha unbelievable what they are able to do and so funny how he desperate try to explain like the last and only post I check out from I suggest a lot of added answers who present us the "universal truth".

    Here:

    He explains that with their country was called Arvanitia when in the folk song the meaning is about the pressure form islamisations from the Tourkia (Turks) and Arvanitia (Albanians). The name of this lands was Epirus , Arvanitia was even from the Arvanites in Greece called ancient illyrian lands where was located the principality of Arvanon, north of the Despotat of Epirus the last name of this lands before Albanians move southwards and before the Ottoman occupation.

    Myself really dont know if I should check out what else interesting informations are on that site so to take the opportunity learn this hidden historical knowledge which had survivied among the PElasgians of Albania...

  10. #390
    Progressing Member Epintius's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Following you can find the lyrics of that song, where these "Greeks" seems to consider Albania being their country, long before Greek state creation.

    Greek

    σύ (ντ)α πας στην εκκλησιά,
    με λαμπάδες με κεριά,
    και με μοσκοθυμιατά,
    για προσκύνα για τ’ εμάς,
    τι μας πλάκωσε η Τουρκιά,
    κι όλη η Αρβανιτιά,
    και μας σέρνουν στα Τζαμιά,
    και μας σφάζουν σαν τ’ αρνιά,
    σαν τ’ αρνιά την Πασχαλιά.
    σαν κατσίκια τ’ Αγιωργιού
    English

    ...and go to the church
    with lamps and candles
    and with sweet-smelling incense
    pray for us too
    because Turkey has seized us,
    so as all of Arvanitia (Albania),
    to take us to the mosques,
    and slaughter us like lambs,
    like goats in Saint George’s day
    like lambs in Easter

    so their country was seized by the Ottomans, and they were calling it ARVANITIA, in other words Albania.

    Haha unbelievable what they are able to do and so funny how he desperate try to explain like the last and only post I check out from I suggest a lot of added answers who present us the "universal truth".

    Here:

    He explains that with their country was called Arvanitia when in the folk song the meaning is about the pressure form islamisations from the Tourkia (Turks) and Arvanitia (Albanians). The name of this lands was Epirus , Arvanitia was even from the Arvanites in Greece called ancient illyrian lands where was located the principality of Arvanon, north of the Despotat of Epirus the last name of this lands before Albanians move southwards and before the Ottoman occupation.

    Myself really dont know if I should check out what else interesting informations are on that site so to take the opportunity learn this hidden historical knowledge which had survivied among the PElasgians of Albania...

  11. #391
    Progressing Member Epintius's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Following you can find the lyrics of that song, where these "Greeks" seems to consider Albania being their country, long before Greek state creation.

    Greek

    σύ (ντ)α πας στην εκκλησιά,
    με λαμπάδες με κεριά,
    και με μοσκοθυμιατά,
    για προσκύνα για τ’ εμάς,
    τι μας πλάκωσε η Τουρκιά,
    κι όλη η Αρβανιτιά,
    και μας σέρνουν στα Τζαμιά,
    και μας σφάζουν σαν τ’ αρνιά,
    σαν τ’ αρνιά την Πασχαλιά.
    σαν κατσίκια τ’ Αγιωργιού
    English

    ...and go to the church
    with lamps and candles
    and with sweet-smelling incense
    pray for us too
    because Turkey has seized us,
    so as all of Arvanitia (Albania),
    to take us to the mosques,
    and slaughter us like lambs,
    like goats in Saint George’s day
    like lambs in Easter

    so their country was seized by the Ottomans, and they were calling it ARVANITIA, in other words Albania.

    And this is a screenshot from wiki page, the link you brought:
    Haha unbelievable what they are able to do and so funny how he desperate try to explain like the last and only post I check out from I suggest a lot of added answers who present us the "universal truth".

    Here:

    He explains that with their country was called Arvanitia when in the folk song the meaning is about the pressure form islamisations from the Tourkia (Turks) and Arvanitia (Albanians). The name of this lands was Epirus , Arvanitia was even from the Arvanites in Greece called ancient illyrian lands where was located the principality of Arvanon, north of the Despotat of Epirus the last name of this lands before Albanians move southwards and before the Ottoman occupation.

    Myself really dont know if I should check out what else interesting informations are on that site so to take the opportunity learn this hidden historical knowledge which had survivied among the PElasgians of Albania...

  12. #392
    Sr. Member Zeus10's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Epintius View Post

    here is also a folk song from Dropoli in Epirus (today part of Albania) about what they had suffer from the Turks and Albanians

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deropolitissa


    Much of this you can find also in Britannica that you prefer cause time reasons myself just linked wikipedia . Also the details of the many clasehs and battles who took place during the greek revolution show clearly how much the Albanians support the Ottomans of course being a part of their society .

    Myself also dont doubt the heroic resistance of the Albanians with Kastrioti against the Ottomans but after the mass islamisations the Albanians became the most important allies of the Ottomans into the area. So its completely wrong writing to us you have to be thankful to the Albanians cause even the Arvanites was back than for centuries even before the Ottomans arrived part of the greek body and lands and even today they are part of the greek nation and not the albanian nation.

    Never doubt that the Arvanites participate heroic and patriotically into the greek revolution no need to remind me nobody about our heroes from wherever they where of Greece independently if they had native greek roots or belonged to later arriving populations with greek or non greek ancestry, language etc. etc.

    Following you can find the lyrics of that song, where these "Greeks" seems to consider Albania being their country, long before Greek state creation.

    Greek

    σύ (ντ)α πας στην εκκλησιά,
    με λαμπάδες με κεριά,
    και με μοσκοθυμιατά,
    για προσκύνα για τ’ εμάς,
    τι μας πλάκωσε η Τουρκιά,
    κι όλη η Αρβανιτιά,
    και μας σέρνουν στα Τζαμιά,
    και μας σφάζουν σαν τ’ αρνιά,
    σαν τ’ αρνιά την Πασχαλιά.
    σαν κατσίκια τ’ Αγιωργιού
    English

    ...and go to the church
    with lamps and candles
    and with sweet-smelling incense
    pray for us too
    because Turkey has seized us,
    so as all of Arvanitia (Albania),
    to take us to the mosques,
    and slaughter us like lambs,
    like goats in Saint George’s day
    like lambs in Easter

    so their country was seized by the Ottomans, and they were calling it ARVANITIA, in other words Albania.

    And this is a screenshot from wiki page, the link you brought:

    The only thing neccessary for the triumph of evil is for good man doing nothing.

  13. #393
    Progressing Member Epintius's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Following you can find the lyrics of that song, where these "Greeks" seems to consider Albania being their country, long before Greek state creation.

    Greek

    σύ (ντ)α πας στην εκκλησιά,
    με λαμπάδες με κεριά,
    και με μοσκοθυμιατά,
    για προσκύνα για τ’ εμάς,
    τι μας πλάκωσε η Τουρκιά,
    κι όλη η Αρβανιτιά,
    και μας σέρνουν στα Τζαμιά,
    και μας σφάζουν σαν τ’ αρνιά,
    σαν τ’ αρνιά την Πασχαλιά.
    σαν κατσίκια τ’ Αγιωργιού
    English

    ...and go to the church
    with lamps and candles
    and with sweet-smelling incense
    pray for us too
    because Turkey has seized us,
    so as all of Arvanitia (Albania),
    to take us to the mosques,
    and slaughter us like lambs,
    like goats in Saint George’s day
    like lambs in Easter

    so their country was seized by the Ottomans, and they were calling it ARVANITIA, in other words Albania.
    Haha unbelievable what they are able to do and so funny how he desperate try to explain like the last and only post I check out from I suggest a lot of added answers who present us the "universal truth".

    Here:

    He explains that with their country was called Arvanitia when in the folk song the meaning is about the pressure form islamisations from the Tourkia (Turks) and Arvanitia (Albanians). The name of this lands was Epirus , Arvanitia was even from the Arvanites in Greece called ancient illyrian lands where was located the principality of Arvanon, north of the Despotat of Epirus the last name of this lands before Albanians move southwards and before the Ottoman occupation.

    Myself really dont know if I should check out what else interesting informations are on that site so to take the opportunity learn this hidden historical knowledge which had survivied among the PElasgians of Albania...

  14. #394
    Newbie baruti's Avatar
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    Albania
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    1

    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Epintius View Post
    Haha unbelievable what they are able to do and so funny how he desperate try to explain like the last and only post I check out from I suggest a lot of added answers who present us the "universal truth".

    Here:

    He explains that with their country was called Arvanitia when in the folk song the meaning is about the pressure form islamisations from the Tourkia (Turks) and Arvanitia (Albanians). The name of this lands was Epirus , Arvanitia was even from the Arvanites in Greece called ancient illyrian lands where was located the principality of Arvanon, north of the Despotat of Epirus the last name of this lands before Albanians move southwards and before the Ottoman occupation.

    Myself really dont know if I should check out what else interesting informations are on that site so to take the opportunity learn this hidden historical knowledge which had survivied among the PElasgians of Albania...
    Oh my God, am I just kidding myself trying to make sense of the paragraph above , or it doesn't really make any sense? Somebody can help me decipher and translate this, I'm just not getting it. Someone reallyyyyy needs to improve his English writing skills.

  15. #395
    Sr. Member Zeus10's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    He is trying to interpret the verses differently from what seems to be the logical meaning of them. He is trying to portrait Albanians as a fanatical Muslim nation, lined up next to the Ottomans ready to persecute the Christians. But this doesn't seem to be the case at least back then, when the Ottomans invaded and seized Albania, Albanians themselves were either Christians or at the very best non-believers, but never Muslim. The religious transformation of the Albanians from Christians to Muslims took many centuries, was partial and never played an important role in the spiritual life of the Albanian nation, let alone making them fanatics to the point they start persecuting the Christian ethne-s around them. It's true that many Albanians have been hired by Turkish militia and army, due to their exceptional military abilities, but that doesn't mean Albanian nation was the persecutor of the Greek nation because of the religion, no. First of all back then, there was not in existence any Hellenic nation, to exercise persecution against. It was Romaioi Greek speakers, the human remains of the Byzantine Empire, which were called Greeks by the Latins, but their religion and language was tolerated even by the Turks. These last ones banned every single school in Albanian language, but allowed enormous amount of such in the Greek one. They even combined forces with the Greek Church, against Albanians and Albanian language, because they knew the Albanians revoltuous spirit with their uncountable uprisings was much a bigger problem for the Ottomans than the other wannabe nations Christian communities, like Romaioi and Servian people.
    Now when it comes to Arvanitia, ignoring the senseless babbling about Illyria and Arvanon, North and South, yes it was Epirus in Old Times and that became equivalent to Albania in the Middle Ages:



    It remained the same until, the so called Greek Revolution or War of Independence



    But until then since the Ottomans seized these lands, there was not any Hellenic nation, I mean ethnically:



    The Arvanitia(Greek) or Albania(Latin) or Arnautluk(Turk) or Arberia(Alb), never suffered a complete Islamization , it's quite the opposite, the Southern parts of that province, remained mainly Christian, and the word Arvanitia although in a wider sense means entire Albania, is used mainly to describe the Southern Orthodox Christian Albanians , where this Dropulli with Greek speakers is included.
    These Christian Arvanites, today, feel themselves as Greeks, and they are now Greeks, but their forefathers were farming these lands with a clear ethnical identity as Albanians, or ancient Epirotes, while the "Greeks" were just Romaioi. They had a long way to run, before changing their Romaic citizenship to a false ethnical one, that of the Hellenic, borrowed from a remote past, a mythical one.

    Last edited by Zeus10; 2015-12-19 at 06:04 PM.
    The only thing neccessary for the triumph of evil is for good man doing nothing.

  16. #396
    Newbie gtcc1's Avatar
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    Re: Was Alexander the Great Really Illyrian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Epintius View Post
    Haha you funny Daco Thracians stuborn like hell. Hard to take it or what?

    When Procopius was visiting in the 5th century AD Epirus all the toponyms was Greek from every lake and river to every forrest, where was there the albanian indigenous tongue and people?

    Believe it but dont try to make others believe something everybody knows isnt like that in a topic about Alexander the Great and if he was Illyrian.
    Those names have to be analyzed by non-Greek linguists, because the contention is not in line with other available sources. A study was done on the names of about 70 castles that Justinian the Great built in Epirus. Most of the names were non-Greek (that is over 90%, I could go and find the source, it was pointed by Christo Frasheri).

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